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so you need wait till next year )

Le podcast Monnaie Libre traite du bitcoin dans son dernier numéro (n°41 du 30 Octobre 2013) :

Monnaie Libre n°41 Bitcoin, 2 milliards d’euros

Bravo ! Excellente vérité.

En Relativité il n'y a pas "tout le monde". Il y a "tout le monde(t)" ou encore "tout le monde(t+dt)" ou encore "tout le monde (t+ev)" où "ev" est l'espérance de vie. Et tous ces "tout le monde" ne sont pas les mêmes "tout le monde", mais l'ensemble de ces "tout le monde(t)" constitue bien "les hommes" qui vont vivre, ont vécu, ou vivent dans le référentiel considéré.

Cf : pour une approche plus visuelle le flux l'homme la monnaie


Cela ne s'impose pas en effet.

Il s'agit bien d'un choix que de prétendre respecter les 4 libertés économiques ainsi que le principe de relativité dans l'espace-temps.


Il n'y a pas de "Je" il y a des "Je(t)" qui échangent des valeurs qu'ils produisent (et ils ne produisent pas l'espace, ni le temps, ni la matière originelle, mais des ajouts immatériels uniquement).

C'est au sein de la zone monétaire, tout nouveau né (toi y compris) reçoit une part monétaire qui n'est pas un droit sur les biens d'autrui dans sa construction mais l'inverse, la valorisation de sa propre valeur ajoutée en tant qu'être humain, sur une base minimale, et symétrique dans l'espace-temps avec tous les autres "Je(t)".

C'est donc un accord entre tous les "Je(t)" d'utiliser une monnaie décentralisée basée sur chaque individu et s'accordant sur le principe que tout individu est producteur de valeurs, qui selon le principe de relativité ne peut aucunement être décidée comme étant de la valeur par quiconque, mais qui, pour que les échanges soient possibles partout et en tout temps, sur cette base de vie (ev) où tous les hommes naissent et meurent, fait l'objet d'une monnaie basée sur l'émetteur de toute valeur = chaque "Je(t)".


Que nenni ! Une monnaie émise sur la base des individus permet parfaitement en tout temps et en tout lieu d'échanger sa production avec autrui en plein respect du droit de propriété. Il n'y a aucune négation. Il y a la reconnaissance que la valeur n'est produite que par les individus et n'a aucune valeur absolue, et la négation du droit à décider pour autrui de façon péremptoire et arbitraire ce qui est valeur et ce qui ne l'est pas, ce qui est le principe de relativité.

Nier le fait qu'un individu produise de la valeur est la négation de la liberté de choix de ce qui est valeur et de ce qui ne l'est pas, l'expression de la volonté d'imposer ses vues à autrui.

En relativité on ne peut que dire "je(t1)" ne reconnais pas de valeur produite par cet individu(t2), mais j'accepte le fait que mon avis n'a pas de valeur absolue et je reconnais tout à fait le droit à d'autres "Je(t3)" de reconnaître des valeurs là où je n'en vois pas.

Comme l'hélicoptère de Léonard, Debian, ou Edmond Albius.


Encore une fois la TRM ne s'impose pas.

En quoi donc serait-elle "totalitaire" ? Ceux qui prétendraient utiliser la TRM pour imposer une monnaie qui en respecte les principes et en niant le droit pour autrui de décider de son propre côté d'une monnaie qui respecte d'autres principes quand bien même elles seraient en désaccord avec les 4 libertés économiques et le principe de relativité, ne feraient qu'agir contrairement au fondement de la TRM.

Boussac ne comprend pas le principe de la pyramide de ponzi (ou vente à la cavalerie) parce qu'il reste bloqué à la pyramide qui fait payer en monnaie une valeur, tandis que concernant une pyramide monétaire les derniers payent en valeur pour obtenir de la monnaie.

Le principe de symétrie (ou covariance ou relativité) est en vérité bien incompris, surtout quant il s'agit de sa partie temporelle où il faut contempler plusieurs vies successives pour voir où sont les biais inacceptables devant les Droits de l'Homme.

Mais peut-on demander à des hommes de comprendre un tel principe de symétrie quand il a fallu 800 ans et des dizaines de générations pour que, excédés, un peuple finisse par établir les principes fondamentaux de la liberté de l'égalité et de la fraternité ?

On ne le peut pas et accepter les quatre libertés économiques ne s'impose pas, ce serait contraire à leur fondement.

C'est pourquoi pendant encore longtemps des hommes feront peu de cas de leurs semblables présents et à venir.

Yes to all !


SEL (Système d'Echange Local) = LET (Local Exchange System)


I understand but I'm not in favor of such a system.

For me money (and in specifically UD) is the solution to solve what I call the "time-space 3 producers problem"

At t=0 X want Vy (value produced by Y), Y want Vz, and Z want Vx, and for X Vz is no value, for Y Vx is no value, and for Z Vy is no value.

They can exchange in a circular way, and create money for that in equal proportion to each one to do it in a fair way.

At t X,Y and Z are died, but an economy remain (after many years of CONTINOUS transformation), it remains A,B,C exchanging Va, Vb, Vc, which are totally different values than Vx, Vy, Vz, which are considered by them as no value.

And so on, generations after generations.

@Red

Here are different kinds of LETS. There are Credit Limited LETS, with for instance 1000 for each, -500 / +500 limits of money for each individuals, and of course UD.

BitCoin as (his first money system that should take another name than the P2P tool itself) is a limited Credit LET like.

But SCEC is much more near a DU since it give a fixed amount of money to each participant (so much more than 5% / year, but with decrease in time).

In fact to reach 5% / year, with a fixed amount of money f, it needs :

f / (f * y) = 5% => Y = 1 / 5% = 20 years to reach it... See graph

Of course LETS users understand quickly what is a DU, but they stated often from just a few years with few participants, the initial fixed amount of money is enough without visible problems, since 5% / year, only double the monetary mass for a 15 years period (1,05 ^15 = 2).

It depends generally of the SEL system, number of members, period of existence etc... Each money system has his own history of experience.

I'm sorry it's not what you beleive. Relativity Theory is about structure of Time Space at very LARGE scale, and not at all about atomics, which revolution (who invalidated Newton too) is Quantic Physics.

Both invalidate Newton Theory. But Newton Theory is still acceptable theory between certain frontiers as a correct predictive theory, but fail in many aspects like Mercure Perihely problem as one of the most know historically (but also about what is space, time, don't predict Big Bang, Black Holes, Time change with speed, constant light speed for all observers etc. etc...).

Not at all. It's about how creating money : for all, or for some ? In a time-space (global) perspective only dm/m = Constant => m = Exp (ct) is a solution.


This is the classical asymetric mistake.

Who bring value ? The old on a money system, or the newcomers in the money system ?

Who decide ? You ?

From the newcomer point of view the old ones own possibly no added value, from the old ones newcomers possibly own no added value, from a Universal Dividend point of view no Human Being has power to decide for the others what is value and is not (but human being itself, as only universal value of any economic system).

Money is NOT value. Joining a money system has nothing to do with value, but with a common tool for EXCHANGE value, in a fair way between members.

If you think you identified precisely some clear causes and conditions in which a desire effect don't occur, you should then try to change causes and conditions to obtain the desire effect, or simply abandon to desire this effect.

Just do as you think it will be good, and stop doing what you clearly identify as bad.

I can't say more to you.

Thank you for having read what I written here.

Regards,

I'm afraid you don't know what it is to define a formal system. It has nothing to do of true or false which are always relative things depending of the formal system you define (paradigm).

You should read Gödel's incompleteness theorems

To define a paradigm such as "The only Universal and Fundamental value of all economic system is individual human being", it is not a question of true or false. It's a question of defining a paradigm, a formal system in which you can developp what is true and what is false into that system knowing that in all formal system they are things true you cannot demonstrate (Gödel).

If you need to exchange about economics on other paradigm, it's not what I'm explaining, it's not what I discuss about, It's not what about I exchange with. You can create another discussion on the paradigm you want, define it, apply it and follow it if you think it will give good results, do it, learn about the results, change it if it's not good, keep it if it's good.

Yes it is.


Your questions have no answer in the paradigm I describe.

I've yet answered that point. It's neither a theory, neither an idea, it's YET an experimental fact, I gave all links necessary to study real experience about this (Namibia, Brazil, Alaska, Italian SCEC etc...) that are also pointed on the wikipedia article, BIEN network, etc... Thanks to study the result of all those experiments, and study the proposition of lots of politicals including it now in their propositions in Europe, South America, Africa and elsewhere with all the material you will find over there.

Experimental proof is the only way to justify any idea.

For example for Gold backed money, experiment shows it has been rejected long time ago yet, like Newton Theory was rejected after Einstein revolution.

Take time to understand deep thought.

No and it's not money. It's a share of a specific good. Not usable in all space, all times, for all exchanges, not a value for large number of human beings.

It's nothing interesting.

I say ANY Money System that is not symtricly created in space and time is a ponzi scheme. That's what I say. Money is an universal (Global - Common) tool for exchanging goods. We cannot create-il in an assymetric way, that is to say from any center point in Time-Space (considering the Time-space of the money system itself, not the whole one).

As a COMMON tool, it is all members ownership.

It's a spacial Ponzi shcheme if it's created in a particular space point, and it's a time ponzi scheme if it's created in particular time points. It's a time-space ponzi scheme when it's created on particular space spoints and date points (like is the official money = a time-space pyramid ponzi scheme).

(Time-Space is not a pyramid. Time-Space is a 4-Dimensionnal Sphere with no particular point of view in front of physics laws, with hubble constant rate of inflation)

Value is not the same from an individual point of view, neither from a date point of view because this is individual choice. But Money as a COMMON tool has to be created without any particular point of view, as space is

BitCoin is 100% ok considering the space perspective, and not ok considering the time pespective as its initial money system works. BitCoins appears with correct analysys as a time Pyramid Ponzi Scheme (and not a time-space one like official money).


Logic, Science, Physics, Mathematics, fair rules games to enjoy, and changing the rules when we discover a not-fair effect, that's my philosophy.

I don't want people organising Ponzi Scheme, this kind of things breaks relationship between the players for bad reasons, create wars, revolutions, blood and fears.


It's just one way between lots of possibilities to understand what is Universal Dividend. You can also see it as :

* A little part of Global transmission to next generation to complete individual transmission.

* Considering the only universal and fundamental node of any economy is the human beings.

* Millions of individual investments made by all on each individuals, with risk as low as possible because of the large number. So if some don't provide the expected "return" on all future times (who will juge this ?), the others success will compensate the investment.

* The global economy zone as a big enterprise owned by individual shareholders, who receive so a yearly dividend.

* Fair Money System

* Want to live in society and be able to exchange with all members without lack of money and central control.

etc...

Lot of possibilities to see it. All are ok for me. I just remark each individual accept better one or other, so I adapt when explaining it.

My vision is a space-time one, which is not easy to see if you didn't study Relativity, so it's often necessary to translate it in each individual global paradigm.

So DON'T create money please. Because this is a ponzi scheme.

All that has nothing in relation with a money system. I never said there is not "poor" I don't care at all about poor and rich, I just say a faire money system don't create money for some and not fot the others.

That's all. What you do individually and become poor or rich is part your individual choices and individual feeling about what is rich what is poor. What you do with common tool is part of common agreement which needs to be fair to be accepted for most people who is just able to think about what is fair and what is not fair.

By the way, since 5% is the optimal dividende for an 80 years life expectancy we can estimate what should be the universal dividend in monetary zones.

There are 15 000 billion US dollars in M3 more or less (see M3 shadow stats) for 303 millions of citizens.

So the Dividend whould be in 2010 of : 15 000 / 0,303 * 5% / 12 = 206 dollars / month / citizen

In EuroZone we have M3 = 10 000 billion euros in circulation and 322 million of citizens.

So the Dividend whould be in 2010 of : 10 000 / 0,322 * 5% / 12 = 130 euros / month / citizen

With great differences into the zone : Minimum social in France is around 500 euros / month / citizen, like in Germany, and minimum legal work income is around 250 euros / month in EuroZone countries such Slovaquia and Hongria (which is not legal is France and Germany where minimum work income is around 1200 euros / month).

With 70 years of life expectancy 0,98 is reached with a 5,50% Dividend, and with 60 years with a 6,50% Dividend.

It's absolutely NOT arbitrary ratio.

It's about 1/N money creation for each individual member during his life for all times.