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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 16/09/2013, 19:55:21 UTC
If someone were going to start attacking MtGox accounts, they aren't going to steal 29 BTC, et even worth the attention it brings... 2FA works fine, the OP enabled 2FA after attack. That simple.  
He is claiming otherwise. Although you are right, we would probably see evidence of more 2fa heists if the OPs claim is true. Perhaps this was a test run. Perhaps it's just a gox troll.

Logs would be nice (from gox), at the very least. Perhaps you can pull logs from the yubikey, idk if that is at all possible. In the end of the day the logs could be tampered with by either party so there is no way to know for sure.

If this is a lie by the OP we would need to find motive, perhaps another exchange spreading FUD.  

Gox has my real info, they can verify if I'm associated to another exchange or not. You're right about the seeing evidence of more 2fa heists though since my incident shouldn't be an isolated incident. For now, I have filed a police report with my local pd in addition to contacting my attorney general.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 15/09/2013, 21:32:17 UTC
Guys, keep the conversation on point.

JRam did you withdraw bitcoins recently?

When I pumped BTCs into my account, my intention was to day trade. And I was day trading fairly well up to this point. I never had the need to withdraw any funds from my Mt. Gox account.

I am extremely shocked that MtGox does not have one simple security feature that I have asked for more than a year ago (when I still was willing to do business with MtGox):

Allow users to lock withdrawals to a single bitcoin address

And allow changes only with a signed message (PGP or a signed message from the current address) EDIT: or (per another suggestion in this thread) after waiting out a lockout period long enough for the real account owner to contest a request initiated by a hacker

This would virtually eliminate ALL the theft without ANY groundbreaking innovation (other than a small modicum of easily acquired common sense)

There might still be theft if the person gets their wallet stolen, but that's a burden that sits squarely on the user, and moves the risk completely out of MtGox's sphere of concern.

+21000000

-21000000 MSFT shares

It will not solve the problem if the Bitcoin address is in a wallet that is in a compromised Microsoft Windows computer. One must keep in mind that is the theft is caused by malware on the user's computer in the first place. How is locking the account to a Bitcoin address on the same infected computer going to solve the problem? It only serves to create a false sense of security for the user.

If this was really malware on my PC, the logs would not show the Chinese ip address of 60.166.242.186 accessing my account. After all, wouldn't it be more legitimate to simply use my own ip address to access my account?

The notion that I just 'sat' on my Yubikey sent to me by Mt. Gox is just silly. I had no other use for this piece of junk. I wish I had the wisdom to save some of the images I posted so I could use it to catch Mt. Gox on an inconsistently later but I think this is the end of the line for me on bitcoins. Now that I can't trust the largest BTC exchange, I think I'm done here. Although this might sound harsh to some, I won't be trying any other alternative cryptocurrencies since I see bitcoin as the gold standard. If I can't invest in bitcoins, I definitely can't invest in other alternatives.

Thanks for anyone that helped and believed in my case. I will be pursuing this case a bit further with my local police department but that will be it.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 15/09/2013, 20:55:10 UTC
I think preliminary, we can treat this as a VERY good hoax.

Indeed; if the MagicalTux quote from Twitter is to be believed.  Does the OP have anything to say in response to this?  It does seem a shame if JRam tried to take advantage of the bitcoin community if this is true.

Will

I'm out $4,000 but what else can I say to prove my case against the CEO himself? $4,000 might not seem like a lot to the wealthier folks but it is a lot to me. Why would I just sit on my Mt. Gox Yubikey that they sent me and never use it until now?  I have also sent Mt. Gox my real personal info to get the verified account so they should know me very well. The only argument I can make if this CEO keeps falsely claiming that I didn't use my Yubikey is this:

"When you think about it, the IP address that stole my coins was from China and I am based in the US. Any half decent business would find this to be a red flag and delay the withdrawal. Maybe Mt. Gox is deliberately letting these glaring red flags slide? "


Okay, so you deny the allegations. This is going to get messy; Mark could certainly post the logs but it is still effectively his word against yours. He is saying you did not have 2FA enabled at the time of the 'heist'.

You should both now post logs. You can use the API to get info about the account (idk how much): https://data.mtgox.com/api/1/generic/private/info

This would work best if you both posted them at the same time. Perhaps you can upload them somewhere, keep the link private and share it once mark posts logs on his end.

@JRam This would be an even better implementation of the Snowden strategy I outlined above, but do it for everything you can think of: logs, support messages, any other data/proof, etc.

Duly noted, I didn't think about the need to catch them on their inconsistency like this. I guess this is one of those life lessons.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 15/09/2013, 20:07:39 UTC
I think preliminary, we can treat this as a VERY good hoax.

Indeed; if the MagicalTux quote from Twitter is to be believed.  Does the OP have anything to say in response to this?  It does seem a shame if JRam tried to take advantage of the bitcoin community if this is true.

Will

I'm out $4,000 but what else can I say to prove my case against the CEO himself? $4,000 might not seem like a lot to the wealthier folks but it is a lot to me. Why would I just sit on my Mt. Gox Yubikey that they sent me and never use it until now?  I have also sent Mt. Gox my real personal info to get the verified account so they should know me very well. The only argument I can make if this CEO keeps claiming that I didn't use my Yubikey is this:

"When you think about it, the IP address that stole my coins was from China and I am based in the US. Any half decent business would find this to be a red flag and delay the withdrawal. Maybe Mt. Gox is deliberately letting these glaring red flags slide? "
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 15/09/2013, 03:50:43 UTC
No software installed to process OTP and my phone was never directly connected to my computer. I connect my phone to my wireless router for its internet speed when I needed to download apps like Google Authenticator. The phone itself was never used to trade, I only traded via the PC.

Thanks for the details.  What about the thought of having typed the Google Authenticator OTP setup seed into a text file (or email, etc.) on the computer, as a way to keep a personal copy of the information in case it was needed later?

If someone did not manage to get your withdrawal credentials, then your report could reveal a new intrusion into Mt. Gox's servers. Despite the 2FA, an attack could still be from outside the company (unless Mt. Gox has really outdone itself with thoroughly secured login/withdrawal processing).

BTW, does anyone know how long Mt. Gox restricts withdrawals to a given GA OTP, and especially whether the site allows reuse of a prior "OTP"?  In the recent past at least, they certainly did not strictly adhere to the standard 30-second window.  (Conceivably a man-in-the-middle attacker could take advantage of such weaknesses.)

No backups since I didn't think it was needed even if I did somehow lose access to the keys. I recall Mt. Gox gave an option to unlink keys where they lock down your account for 2 weeks and repeatedly email you to verify that the real owner made the request.

https://www.mtgox.com/login/otp-unlink

As I've used my account earlier this week and never received such emails, I don't think this was the attack vector.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 15/09/2013, 02:21:38 UTC
I'm glad some people are posting on this thread, but frankly I was expecting this to get a lot more attention. This would be the first story, ever, of a person losing money who had a Yubikey and did not also have a trading API key floating out to be used. I've never used a trading bot, so I don't know if there was a mistake in granting permissions there... but this would be a Bitcoin first.

Well it is the weekend so it is understandable. Although having $4,000 stolen hurts, there is not much more I can do about it. I'm confident there is no mistake in granting permissions as you would have to consciously check the 'withdraw' box to grant withdraw permission. I also combed through the trading bot source code at one point looking to see if there are any malicious code.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 15/09/2013, 00:24:29 UTC
Thanks for answering all the questions.  I'm not sure how those funds were taken.  It seems you had taken all steps to avoid being hacked, and all the obvious (and some non-obvious) attack vectors were covered.

Will

Thank you for your insight into this.

If Mt. Gox allows withdrawals using either the OTP -or- the Yubikey, Google Authenticator OTP is the far more likely vulnerability.

That would be the case if, when setting up the OTP, you typed its key details into a file on your computer or smartphone (how else would you recover it if there's a problem?)  ... or if you ever installed software on your trading computer to process the OTP (instead of or in addition to Google Authenticator on the phone)  ... or if you ever connect the phone to the computer.  All these scenarios assume a compromised computer, and not necessarily any user error.

Or, the smartphone with GA could itself be compromised.  If the phone was used to trade, or if the Mt. Gox account name & password were kept on it, then the PC need not be involved.

An inside theft by Mt. Gox employees would seem more likely to involve accounts lacking Yubikey withdrawal restrictions, to keep a lower profile, unless the intention of the theft was to visibly harm the exchange's reputation in an especially newsworthy way.

No software installed to process OTP and my phone was never directly connected to my computer. I connect my phone to my wireless router for its internet speed when I needed to download apps like Google Authenticator. The phone itself was never used to trade, I only traded via the PC.

If Mt. Gox ran out of accounts lacking Yubikeys or a combination of other authentication methods, would they eventually grow desperate enough under financial pressure? There are also other reasons why I suspect Mt. Gox, namely the ip address being from China withdrawing from my US based account. No delays or email verifications raised to this glaring red flag. I never had an intention to harm Mt. Gox's reputation since their success would eventually equal to my success. I was trading on trends fairly well and Mt. Gox's volume helps a lot. Without Mt. Gox, I can't do what I have been doing so I lose out too.

This attack seems to be well timed since I get limited support from Mt. Gox on the weekends. I know I have been a bit aggressive with the Mt. Gox representative but I don't see any other options. For anyone interested:

http://i.imgur.com/4hvC4yq.jpg
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 23:41:47 UTC
what device is your GA stored on?

Is the device rooted?

Did you make backups of the GA seed somehow or somewhere, and if so, where were those stored?

Will

Here it is straight from my T-Mobile personal account although I had to black out my name and number:

http://i.imgur.com/2gGInBc.jpg

My cell is not rooted and I did not have any backups. I've heard of the rooting process and what it can do but I personally never had a need for it.

so you were using SMS based GA or running the GA app on your phone?

Will

GA app.

OP, can you ask MtGox to check and confirm:

a) that funds can only be withdrawn from your account when the yubikey is used.
b) that their logs show a 3-sec (long-press) was actually performed on this withdrawal.

I will ask them right away on these specific points.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 23:39:05 UTC
what device is your GA stored on?

Is the device rooted?

Did you make backups of the GA seed somehow or somewhere, and if so, where were those stored?

Will

Here it is straight from my T-Mobile personal account although I had to black out my name and number:

http://i.imgur.com/2gGInBc.jpg

My cell is not rooted and I did not have any backups. I've heard of the rooting process and what it can do but I never personally had a need for it.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 23:31:58 UTC
I originally had $4,000 in USD but the culprit converted it to BTC and withdrew.

Out of curiosity, what verification level is your account?
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mt._Gox#AML

http://i.imgur.com/PioDmwd.jpg

Verified level 1. I did the whole verification process and sent them my info.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 22:04:21 UTC
check you didn't have any extensions installed that had full access to your computer (NPAPI) or had access to contents of tabs, or mtgox.

an extension such as this could inject malicious javascript into your mtgox page.

Will

http://i.imgur.com/XVw29qL.jpg

I really don't think its the trade bot. Anyone can take a look at the source code https://github.com/TobbeLino/GoxTradingBotTobli.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 21:14:13 UTC
There is a weakness if the Google Authenticator seed was somehow compromised. I'm not sure if a session cookie could had been stolen to login without the YubiKey then using Google Authenticator for withdrawal. That would explain the external IP but I'm not sure if stealing your cookie would work.

there should be a way to reverse these type of transactions when something unauthorized occurs. that's the weakness of BTC right now.
Yeah, that's the same reason why nobody in the world uses cash... huge weakness.

@OP: sorry for your loss. Also, thank you for sharing the information here. It is important that we get to the bottom of this. It's mind boggling. Even if your PC was completely compromised, and you were logged into gox that night, the hacker still needed to long press the yubikey. This is assuming your settings did not leave any holes via API or google auth, etc.

Cash payments are reversible it is called small claims court.

Op i dont shit about the issue you are having but it is screwed up. Goes to show you cant trust institutions.

It makes me sick that this happened to you.




Thank you guys for your input thus far. I think I will have to distance myself from BTC since the investment portion was a big reason why I got into BTCs. When you can't even trust the largest BTC exchange with your coins, there is nothing I can do.
Long term investment should never be left on a exchange, use a paper wallet or an offline computer with Armory.

If this was Mt. Gox's doing and was a result of their financial situation, wouldn't it still be unsafe in the short term if their financial situation got desperate enough? I'd imagine it would be something similar to Russian roulette with risks increasing every second when they have your BTCs.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 21:07:38 UTC
There is a weakness if the Google Authenticator seed was somehow compromised. I'm not sure if a session cookie could had been stolen to login without the YubiKey then using Google Authenticator for withdrawal. That would explain the external IP but I'm not sure if stealing your cookie would work.

there should be a way to reverse these type of transactions when something unauthorized occurs. that's the weakness of BTC right now.
Yeah, that's the same reason why nobody in the world uses cash... huge weakness.

@OP: sorry for your loss. Also, thank you for sharing the information here. It is important that we get to the bottom of this. It's mind boggling. Even if your PC was completely compromised, and you were logged into gox that night, the hacker still needed to long press the yubikey. This is assuming your settings did not leave any holes via API or google auth, etc.

Cash payments are reversible it is called small claims court.

Op i dont shit about the issue you are having but it is screwed up. Goes to show you cant trust institutions.

It makes me sick that this happened to you.




Thank you guys for your input thus far. I think I will have to distance myself from BTC now since the investment portion was a big reason why I got into BTCs. When you can't even trust the largest BTC exchange with your coins, there is nothing I can do.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 20:59:43 UTC
You do have a lot of annoying AdWare, this shouldn't be found on a "secure" computer.

I've did a bit of digging into these AdWare but none of them seems to be able to take over my computer or is even related to bitcoin. I'm running MSE atm but it never recorded any attacks in its log. The logged ip address that did the transfer was from China; is this really something that originated from my PC? I'm still not sure how my Yubikey was bypassed unless it was by Mt. Gox employees.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 20:47:50 UTC
Maybe his computer was on at the time, logged in on his Gox account? Someone might've taken over the computer.

http://i.imgur.com/2WiPhYj.jpg

My PC is located in my home but the person who withdrew had an ip address from China. Malwarebytes did not detect anything that I think would take over my computer. I'm not sure what it could be.

there should be a way to reverse these type of transactions when something unauthorized occurs. that's the weakness of BTC right now.
Yeah, that's the same reason why nobody in the world uses cash... huge weakness.

@OP: sorry for your loss. Also, thank you for sharing the information here. It is important that we get to the bottom of this. It's mind boggling. Even if your PC was completely compromised, and you were logged into gox that night, the hacker still needed to long press the yubikey. This is assuming your settings did not leave any holes via API or google auth, etc.

Holes via Google auth? Can you clarify?

https://blockchain.info/address/1Zq3rJPzNMi9vJ1KqT9SKfAcfHx8NYVds

Just looking for clues...

Why 2.00 + 2.00 + 25.20793 to get them out instead of one transaction?

Maybe someone was testing if they got around my Yubikey but I still don't know how. I am still suspecting Mt. Gox itself doing this.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 14:02:09 UTC
Go into "Security Center" -> "Current API Keys"

Confirm there's nothing there.

http://i.imgur.com/CKuu90B.jpg

I use the TobbeLino trade bot https://github.com/TobbeLino/GoxTradingBotTobli but its API key was only granted permissions to get_info and trade. This bot was also disabled for over a week so I don't think this is the cause.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 13:38:20 UTC
I know it sounds dumb but I remember reading about someone who had a YubiKey but forgot to activate it in his MtGox security center.

Can you clarify? I see my Yubikey specifically under "Withdrawals".
You should be good then.

Haha, well apparently not since someone still managed to steal from my account. I added screenshots of the Yubikey. Yubikeys aren't supposed to be easy to crack are they? I can only think of Mt. Gox itself doing this so I will never trust them again.
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Re: Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 13:17:18 UTC
I know it sounds dumb but I remember reading about someone who had a YubiKey but forgot to activate it in his MtGox security center.

Can you clarify? I see my Yubikey specifically under "Withdrawals".
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Topic OP
Mt.Gox Account secured with Yubikey but still had 29 BTCs stolen
by
JRam
on 14/09/2013, 13:11:05 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/DyjeYdh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TL1rJxc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/J4dL01c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2WiPhYj.jpg

All of the trade activity in the screenshot are not mine. I originally had $4,000 in USD but the culprit converted it to BTC and withdrew.

How hard is it to bypass the Yubikey? I was not even awake at around 4 AM when this happened so I don't think it is malware or plishing. In case this is some form of delayed malware, I'm doing a full scan at the moment with Malwarebytes. I am beginning to suspect Mt.Gox internal operations of doing this especially after hearing all the news about Mt.Gox's financial problems.

When you think about it, the IP address that stole my coins was from China and I am based in the US. Any half decent business would find this to be a red flag and delay the withdrawal. Maybe Mt. Gox is deliberately letting these glaring red flags slide?

I don't want to believe it but the possibility of the largest BTC exchange stealing from its users paints a grim picture for BTC. If my suspicions are correct, I hope this serves as a warning to the rest of the BTC community.
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Re: Mt. Gox Down -- again
by
JRam
on 10/09/2013, 20:54:23 UTC
It seems the BTC market shrugged off this downtime like it was nothing. I'm impressed at how far the BTC market has developed.