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Re: We are at peak BTC price.
by
JaanusRaim
on 15/09/2025, 23:40:16 UTC
Hi All.

Approximately 12 years ago I joined this forum and purchased what is now worth $1.8M BTC. If you don't believe me, that's fine, I don't care. I’m not providing my BTC address due to the recent Coinbase hack which would reveal my identity.

I am now, for the first time ever, thinking about selling all of my BTC.

Why?

Because my siblings, who are very dumb, keep sending me screenshots about their latest BTC and ETH holdings. I fear we have reached peak BTC. The dumb money has arrived.

Should I sell, spend it all on hookers, or some combination of the two?

BTC is highly overvalued at the moment because the price is about one magnitude (ca 10 times) higher than the equilibrium price determined by the BTC acceptance (popularity) rate. I would suggest to sell now and buy back when the price is normalized.
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Re: 2009
by
JaanusRaim
on 15/09/2025, 23:31:55 UTC

Not 99% but sure most people just follow and its easier to do so just like following an established path vs trying to find a new one is alot more effort and prone to fail.



I think I has much more fun to find a new bath even if it would not give a great profit. But I understand why others do not think so.

Hypothesis no 6: "If you nostalgically think that there was some time in the past that was more wonderful, profitable and full of great opportunities than the present era, then you are destined to think the same about the present era in some future era". If you miss 2009 in 2025, then you will miss 2025 in (for example) 2033.

Hypothesis no 7: "The greatest profit you can get from history studies, is reaching the hypothesis no 6". There could be the subject "The WINTER" in schools, or at least the subject "The crisis" that is its close relative. When I studied economics almost nothing was talked about these wonderful themes.
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Re: 0.05 usd (2010), 5 usd (2012), 500 usd (2014)
by
JaanusRaim
on 15/09/2025, 23:06:42 UTC
But the most wonderful price is 17 000 usd: this is the only price level that BTC has achieved in three different eras: first at the end of 2017 when it was the upper resistance price, second at the end of 2020 and third at the end of 2022 when it was the lower resistance price. 

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Re: 0.05 usd (2010), 5 usd (2012), 500 usd (2014)
by
JaanusRaim
on 14/09/2025, 23:49:28 UTC
There were specific periods for some price levels: the level 0.05 usd/BTC existed only in the 3th quarter of 2010, the level 1 usd existed only in the first part of 2011, the level 100 usd existed only in 2013, the level 2000 usd existed only in the middle of 2017... but since the 3th quarter of 2017 every price level has emerged repeatedly (more than just once).
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Re: 2009
by
JaanusRaim
on 14/09/2025, 23:31:18 UTC
The WINTER, I use this name to mark a period where the market is clearly irrational and tends to become even more irrational. Just like 2009 in the Bitcoin context (2010 and especially the second part of 2010 were the quite different season already with sharp price rices, winners and losers and some already declared that "they had missed the bus").
The WINTER is time full of potential, but the fruits are far far in the future.

Hypothesis no 3: "The investors abilities to being aware, exploit and enjoy the WINTER are the main determinants of their success".

Hypothesis no 4: "The WINTER is quite usual thing: every year has WINTERS." Hypothesis no 5: "Being aware of WINTER is unusual".

Being aware of the WINTER is not the same as exploiting it, it is possible that investor has no resources to take a position (to go long or short) in irrationally undervalued (overvalued) asset. Exploiting of WINTER is not the same as enjoying it, it is possible that the impatience to get fruits is so great that investor loses his position before the next season begins.

Some WINTERS are more liquid than others (enable to invest more resources is it). One prominent example of very liquid WINTER was the first part of 1991 in the Soviet Union where the prices of domestic assets formed only a fraction of the prices of foreign assets but the rouble/usd nominal exchange rate (instead of rising to eliminate this inequilibrium) prepares even to fall even more making domestic asset cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and it seemed that there were no end to this process.
The Bitcoin WINTER was not liquid - it was not possible to invest even hundred thousand usd into it. You had not to be wealthy to be an early Bitcoiner. But you definitely needed some other resources. What kind of resources?
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Topic OP
2009
by
JaanusRaim
on 12/09/2025, 21:36:17 UTC
At first, I have to admit that the topic name/subject "2009" is not fully true or is true only just a little bit as well as any other year (for example "2025" or "1981" or "2104"). The only excuse for using just this topic name is that we are in the Bitcoin forum and for Bitcoin it is very suitable and hopefully attracts some attention, more attention than for example "Looking for the roots of opportunity" or "The nests of black swans" - that are probably more accurate labels for the problem I will focus.

Having read the bitcointalk we have frequently met the nostalgic opinions that the first bitcoiners were not equal position relative to the followers. Other argue against them saying that we all were in equal starting point and joining the Bitcoin journey sooner or later was fully up to you (everyone had the equal chance to obtain BTCs with cheap prices). Before deciding one or other, lets trying to imagine the year 2009 in Bitcoin context. Only extremely few (probably less than thousand? persons all over the world that means 0.00001%) had heart about Bitcoin and if they try to talk about it to others then 99% did not want to listen them and were fully aware that Bitcoin is a scam, a ponzi-scheme, a lie, a (bad) joke... certainly nothing important, certainly not having investment potential ("even if it could have some usefulness in the distant future, everybody can just copy it").
Opinion 1 (or hypothesis 1): "About 99% people just follow the crowd and the leaders ("The Times", the president and so on): they have ayes and ears but nothing more". I suggest that it is so not only in Bitcoin context but in any other context as well. And not only in 2009 but in any other year as well. And in 2025 just as well as in 2009. (If I am right, it makes me sad, but I believe the situation changes in the future).

The reason why everybody was against Bitcoin in the first year(s) was not the thinking process but just the fact that OTHERS were against Bitcoin as well.
The reason why many of us is with Bitcoin in 2025 is the same.

Hypothesis 2: The Bitcoin in 2009 was (subjectively) not the same as Bitcoin in 2025. It was not even similar to it. The Bitcoin in 2009 rather resembles the shittiest shitcoin in 2025".
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 11/09/2025, 22:15:32 UTC
When Bitcoin was $10k, it was considered overvalued.
When Bitcoin was $30k, it was considered overvalued.
When Bitcoin was $50k, it was considered overvalued.
When Bitcoin was $100k, it was considered overvalued.

So at any point, Bitcoin skeptics will always say it's "overvalued".

But look, your claim that Bitcoin will drop 90% before it reaches $1M is simply delusional. Even though we've experienced more severe market conditions before, Bitcoin's price hasn't plummeted 90%. That's essentially an exaggerated assumption that doesn't take into account the current market reality.

While there's potential for a Bitcoin bear market, it won't be that severe. Let's just be more realistic and avoid spreading FUD.

When Bitcoin hit $10k in 2017 it was overvalued.

When Bitcoin hit $100k in 2030 it probably will not be overvalued. All that matters is time (popularity takes time to grow).
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Re: 0.05 usd (2010), 5 usd (2012), 500 usd (2014)
by
JaanusRaim
on 03/09/2025, 22:47:50 UTC
from 500 to 50 000 took 10 years
from 50 000 to 5 000 000 will take 200 years Smiley
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 03/09/2025, 22:34:30 UTC
 

Owning some satoshi in some exchange does not mean that this person accepts BTC at the same rate than (for example) USD. How many there are such persons for whom BTC carries the money functions (medium of exchange, store of value, measure of value and so on) as intensively as fiat money ?
I agree somewhat, but would you ask the same question about gold? I think more people are using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange than those using gold, and the value of all gold in the world is vastly higher than BTC's current market cap (7-8 times higher actually).
[/quote]


Yes, this function (money function) - gold as the medium of exchange -  is remarkable weak nowadays. It is so weak that it is indeed possible that BTC is stronger is this segment. But both are very low (may-be because BTC has so high transaction cost for everyday small payments) relative to fiat. I admit that BTC (and other cryptocurrencies) have strong competitive advantage in large payments between different countries. This is an excellent opportunity for crypto.

 
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Re: We are at peak BTC price.
by
JaanusRaim
on 02/09/2025, 22:30:03 UTC
Approximately 12 years ago I joined this forum and purchased what is now worth $1.8M BTC. If you don't believe me, that's fine, I don't care. I’m not providing my BTC address due to the recent Coinbase hack which would reveal my identity.
With respect to the current rate of Bitcoin been valued at $108,000 per BTC at the time of writing this post, then I'm pretty sure that the amount of Bitcoin whose current value gave you $1.8million must have  over 16.66 BTC  (i.e 1,800,000/108,000 = 16.66 BTC)[/b]. Which also implies you own a whooping 16 Bitcoins at the moment, which is actually crazy, judging by the fact that the amount you both it 12years ago wasn't even up to $50,  and now 12yrs later, you are now a millionaire. Hence, in regards to if should you sell it or not, then to be frankly speaking, i  will be wondering what you will be waiting for to not sell even if it's just 1.6 BTC while you keep holding the rest 5 BTC.


12 years ago the price was approximately 100usd/BTC, therefore the investment sum was around 1500 usd.
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Re: We are at peak BTC price.
by
JaanusRaim
on 02/09/2025, 22:26:01 UTC
Hi All.

Approximately 12 years ago I joined this forum and purchased what is now worth $1.8M BTC. If you don't believe me, that's fine, I don't care. I’m not providing my BTC address due to the recent Coinbase hack which would reveal my identity.

I am now, for the first time ever, thinking about selling all of my BTC.

Why?

Because my siblings, who are very dumb, keep sending me screenshots about their latest BTC and ETH holdings. I fear we have reached peak BTC. The dumb money has arrived.

Should I sell, spend it all on hookers, or some combination of the two?

I fully agree with you.
If everyone understands that you are doing, then the right time is over. If everyone talks about an asset, then sell it.
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 02/09/2025, 22:21:52 UTC
First reason: Bitcoin price is now clearly overvalued relative the level determined by its public acceptance rate (if 100% acceptance rate means ca one million usd, then nowadays acceptance rate is not clearly 10% but rather something around 1%).
Interesting theory, although a bit underdeveloped perhaps (a bit of a poor man's Total Addressable Market analysis). But fortunately this one can be debunked quite easily with "hard facts".

There are several studies that imply that the public "Bitcoin acceptance" is even higher than 10% in many important countries, including the US, and about 5-10% in many countries in Europe, Africa and Latin America.

- Crypto.com: 337 million Bitcoin users for late 2024 (there are no newer figures)
- Triple A: Their last report is from 2023, but even back then there were already >10% crypto users in big countries like the US, Brazil, South Africa and the Philippines.

Of course their stats may be inexact but I think the general order of magnitude should be correct.

And of course: We may have a population of 8.x billion. But that includes children, the elderly, and people in rural areas who will probably never need Bitcoin. A 100% penetration would be thus in my opinion more close to 2-3 billion: one main user per family.

Our marketcap also means that every family on Earth owns, on average, about $1000 in Bitcoin. Wink (if we say there are 2 billion families in the world, then the a 2T market cap means exactly that). Yes, the median is probably still 0 but it nevertheless is remarkable.

Owning some satoshi in some exchange does not mean that this person accepts BTC at the same rate than (for example) USD. How many there are such persons for whom BTC carries the money functions (medium of exchange, store of value, measure of value and so on) as intensively as fiat money ? Of cause, it is extremely hard to measure, but one thing is sure for me - the percentage is not 10 or even 5. It can be 0.5, 1 or 2.
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Re: Al little experiment, what is better - hodling or trading ?
by
JaanusRaim
on 31/08/2025, 22:28:54 UTC
mBTC is now 109.18 usd. Therefore I have BTC 0.0009467(103.36/109.18).
My investment return (in four months) is -5.33 %.
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 30/08/2025, 22:20:26 UTC
Yes, there have been many many micro-level (or crypto-specific) crisis, but no macro-level economic crisis like 2008 or 1929 during Bitcoin lifetime.
Then short it or you are just full of shit. Show us your open short positions.  Smiley

The market can stay irrational longer than I can remain solvent. What if BTC price goes even to 130 000 or 150 000 before the crash?
If I am right, I need not to take such risk. 

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Topic OP
0.05 usd (2010), 5 usd (2012), 500 usd (2014)
by
JaanusRaim
on 30/08/2025, 22:13:01 UTC
There is quite interesting coincidence in Bitcoin price history: the large amount (at least quarter) of 2010 year BTCs had bought at price 0.05 usd, 2012 year 5 usd and 2014 year 500 usd. 100-fold difference between both 2012 versus 2010 and 2014 versus 2012.
If such speed had continued, the BTC price would be 500 x 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 = 5 000 000 000 000 in 2024  Smiley 
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 26/08/2025, 21:30:50 UTC
Bitcoin will not dip to $10k anymore, that era is gone because the price keeps pumping overtime due to continous adoption of bitcoin by new investors. How do you expect the price of bitcoin to dip to $10k when we have big whales, institutions, governments and many more big companies using bitcoin as a store of value. Who will sell their bitcoin that will lead to such low price. Wake up and face reality.

To be fair, while the chances of that happening are low, it's not impossible. We should also be realistic that the future is unknown and anything can happen.

After all, bitcoin is still a new asset and although adoption is widespread around the world, but it is clear that the world is still very skeptical about it. They still don't really believe in bitcoin the way they believe in gold and other traditional assets. Top corporations like Apple, Nvidia are still on the sidelines or central banks are still refusing to add bitcoin to their national reserves, or many people still don't really believe and invest in it. Moreover, those who invest in bitcoin, most still consider bitcoin as a high-risk speculative asset. So if there is an economic crisis or world war, people are more likely to dump bitcoin than to choose it as a safe haven.

Yes, yes the black swan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
For me this bird is not surprise. Her emerging is just a matter of time, and I am very curious what will be the exact circumstances that surround this.

 
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 25/08/2025, 22:01:11 UTC
Second reason: if the economic crises will emerge, then Bitcoin falls much more than major stock indexes (just as during corona crises March 2020).

Isn't it a good thing that the price will fall before it rise again, if there's already a guarantee that we'll be getting to $1 million soon then I won't have a problem buying when it fall below $10,000 as you're thinking. I'll be happy to buy more Bitcoin at that price but I hope it isn't just a flash fall but the price falls that low and stays that way for many months or upto years so that more weak hands can be selling their Bitcoin for the smarter Investors to be accumulating more Bitcoin. But I don't think the price will be falling that low because before that happens, people would have bought up all the Bitcoin getting sold for low prices.

Exactly ! It will be good thing for conscious investors. It is always a good thing if you can buy things cheaper.
 
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 24/08/2025, 22:12:39 UTC
Are you kidding? If you are serious, you are an idiot.

Yes, Bitcoin is never fallen below 10% its ATH (with one exception: second part of 2011). But Bitcoin has never seen an economic crises as well. The following creases seems to be deeper than the 2008 one because the boom accumulation has been much greater than in the previous time (before 2008). The bigger boom - the bigger room (for crisis).
Bitcoin has survived all kinds of crises. There has been crisis after crisis since it has been created. Everything short of WW3 and complete economic collapse. If you believe that you are right then take out a loan using everything you own as collateral and short Bitcoin with 100x leverage. If you won't, then you are just being an fraudulent idiot with threads like this.  Roll Eyes

And according to you, what would happen if the acceptance rate doesn't budge and stays the same?
Nothing in the world stays the same, ever, so why would Bitcoin's acceptnace rate stay the same? I can't believe you are trying to pretend you are seriously responding to this stupid topic.

Yes, there have been many many micro-level (or crypto-specific) crisis, but no macro-level economic crisis like 2008 or 1929 during Bitcoin lifetime.
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Re: Before Bitcoin hits 1 000 000 usd, it falls below 10 000 usd
by
JaanusRaim
on 24/08/2025, 22:07:17 UTC
I calculate the Bitcoin "right" price level via acceptance because I see it as the most important determinant of Bitcoin (and all other cryptocurrencies) price.

How I determine the acceptance rate? It is much harder to answer. Yes using Bitcoin for regular payments is one part of this but there are many other functions of money as well. USD acceptance rate is near 100% now. If Bitcoin is accepted just as USD, then its price is justified to be near one million USD. Not ten millions, not 100 000. Do you imagine one Bitcoin to cost 10 000 000 usd (in nowadays usd purchasing power) even if Bitcoin is fully accepted ? I think, you do not - because there is hardly so many wealth in the world to able this.
Okay, I see your point, but how are you so confident that the Bitcoin's acceptance rate will increase by that much? It'll definitely see an rise in the upcoming years because it has become way too mainstream after it surpassed $100,000, but in no ideal world would it even be close in competing the U.S. dollar and most certainly won't replace fiat currencies. This wasn't Bitcoin's intended purpose either. And according to you, what would happen if the acceptance rate doesn't budge and stays the same?

I do not know how much Bitcoin acceptance rate will increase. Yes, it is possible that it stagnates or even fall - I think the BTC price will follow that sooner or later (or rather sooner).

Yes, Bitcoin is interesting thing, very interesting , but I have seen repeatedly that this quality does not cause huge popularity.
 
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Re: Possible value of Bitcoin 10 years from now.
by
JaanusRaim
on 24/08/2025, 21:44:42 UTC
All people who predict the numerical value of Bitcoin price... all people with no exception... predict remarkable price increase (to near one million usd). All people think almost the same. What we can conclude from this ? ?