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Will the accounts from the old site be transferred to the new site, and will we be able to login through our old credentials?
The new site will be independent of old one, so you will have to register again. There will be a way, per user request, to transfer your reputation to the new site though, so if you made several successful transactions on Bitmarket they will show up on Bitalo, so you will have a trust credit right on the start. Bitalo.com will have a rating system, so this will be very helpful to buyers and sellers.
How will my frozen coins be handled?
Dear Bitmarket.eu "stakeholders",
Last week-end from 15-17.3.2013 we had an investors' "kick-off" meeting in Helsinki about the situation of bitmarket.eu, and we just wanted to inform everyone quickly about the main decision points:
1) Bitmarket.eu operations will be closed down. The site will only be left open to handle the old frozen coin issues for which Maciej as the owner of bitmarket.eu is responsible.
2) The group of investors will create a new legal entity in form of a newly founded Aktiengesellschaft with seat in Germany. The company name will be "BiTalo AG" with a website at www.bitalo.com (also bitalo.org and bitalo.net have been registered).
3) So far we have acquired a starting capital of minimum 50.000 euros from a small group of investors. It is still possible to contact us for additional investment of NEW money.
4) It will not be possible to bring in "frozen coins" as shares to the new company, as this is not feasible from a legal point of view. We are still investigating possible solutions for treating "frozen coins" as a long-term investment.
5) Maciej, who represents bitmarket.eu, will sell the code of the old site to the new company, while the user database and debts will remain as his responsibility. Maciej will not be a shareholder nor participate in the administration of the new co-operation.
6) The goal of the new company is to create a new platform with new trading and market functions and efficient security measures so no admin can access a user's bitcoins without consent of the user. Old bitmarket.eu users may create an account on the new site if they wish, but the new company has no obligations towards them.
7) The plan is to start with 6 persons: 3 persons in the management board and 3 in the supervisory board in official roles. They will be paid no salary until the site is profitable.
The new company will invest the starting capital into the development of a new site and therefore employ Maciej as a consultant. Additional developers will be hired, and one of Maciej's main duties will be to transfer his knowledge of how the code works to new developers and administrators.
9) As long as the new company employs Maciej, he will use part of his income to reimburse frozen coins. A more detailed payback plan might be announced on the old bitmarket.eu website by Maciej. The new company will only be responsible to verify that Maciej fulfills this duty.
10) In case additional people are interested in participation and/or investments, just contact mralbi by PM.
Last week-end from 15-17.3.2013 we had an investors' "kick-off" meeting in Helsinki about the situation of bitmarket.eu, and we just wanted to inform everyone quickly about the main decision points:
1) Bitmarket.eu operations will be closed down. The site will only be left open to handle the old frozen coin issues for which Maciej as the owner of bitmarket.eu is responsible.
2) The group of investors will create a new legal entity in form of a newly founded Aktiengesellschaft with seat in Germany. The company name will be "BiTalo AG" with a website at www.bitalo.com (also bitalo.org and bitalo.net have been registered).
3) So far we have acquired a starting capital of minimum 50.000 euros from a small group of investors. It is still possible to contact us for additional investment of NEW money.
4) It will not be possible to bring in "frozen coins" as shares to the new company, as this is not feasible from a legal point of view. We are still investigating possible solutions for treating "frozen coins" as a long-term investment.
5) Maciej, who represents bitmarket.eu, will sell the code of the old site to the new company, while the user database and debts will remain as his responsibility. Maciej will not be a shareholder nor participate in the administration of the new co-operation.
6) The goal of the new company is to create a new platform with new trading and market functions and efficient security measures so no admin can access a user's bitcoins without consent of the user. Old bitmarket.eu users may create an account on the new site if they wish, but the new company has no obligations towards them.
7) The plan is to start with 6 persons: 3 persons in the management board and 3 in the supervisory board in official roles. They will be paid no salary until the site is profitable.
The new company will invest the starting capital into the development of a new site and therefore employ Maciej as a consultant. Additional developers will be hired, and one of Maciej's main duties will be to transfer his knowledge of how the code works to new developers and administrators.9) As long as the new company employs Maciej, he will use part of his income to reimburse frozen coins. A more detailed payback plan might be announced on the old bitmarket.eu website by Maciej. The new company will only be responsible to verify that Maciej fulfills this duty.
10) In case additional people are interested in participation and/or investments, just contact mralbi by PM.
Will the accounts from the old site be transferred to the new site, and will we be able to login through our old credentials?
yeah, legally speaking it simply not a "crime" in the legal sense, unless you can prove that he INTENTIONALLY lost the coins or that he INTENDED to "steal" them. When he says explicitally that this was NOT intended (as he does) it is basically impossible to prove the opposite.
Even though he had no right to gamble with your coins, you cannot assume from that, that he "stole" them or did this in any way intentionally.
I mean you have the right to be reimbursed for your loss, but it is not a crime. The ONLY thing you can do is to sue him for the damage he caused to you and that is
a) tricky to prove
b) useless for the above metioned reasons
The government and all the crappy police institutions plus courts etc. are unfortunately NOT here to help you, they don't give a shit, they are just there for their own sake of being paid by the tax payer.
PS: 15 min at the police? Last time it took me already 45 min queueing and after that 1 hour just to explain what a bitcoin is and why it has value, lol
Even though he had no right to gamble with your coins, you cannot assume from that, that he "stole" them or did this in any way intentionally.
I mean you have the right to be reimbursed for your loss, but it is not a crime. The ONLY thing you can do is to sue him for the damage he caused to you and that is
a) tricky to prove
b) useless for the above metioned reasons
The government and all the crappy police institutions plus courts etc. are unfortunately NOT here to help you, they don't give a shit, they are just there for their own sake of being paid by the tax payer.
PS: 15 min at the police? Last time it took me already 45 min queueing and after that 1 hour just to explain what a bitcoin is and why it has value, lol
Are you some kind of legal expert? Not all crimes require intent. The proof of negligence is often enough, for example negligent homicide. The fact is that M4v3R took (knowingly and willingly) something that didn't belong to him, used it for his own intents and purposes, and subsequently lost it. Whether or not that is a crime is best left to the judicial system to decide.
You don't actually need to go into the details on bitcoins and their value, like you don't need to explain why tokens of fiat money printed on paper have some value. You just need to explain that bitcoins are a form of digital goods.
maybe we should sue the satoshi guy too whilst we at it. maybe the whole bitcoin thing is just an elaborate get rich scheme 
You go right ahead and do just that, if that's your wish. Just don't imagine or imply that it was anyone else's stupid idea, but yours alone. That would be a total straw man.
well, when i just cite from your own link where it says:
"Before taking legal action against a foreign national, you should consider whether or not it is likely to be worthwhile.
First of all, it may cost a lot in legal fees as it is questionable whether the defendant will either readily agree to repayment of a debt, or have sufficient money to repay debts. Therefore, you need to ensure that you have sufficient funds to commence proceedings.
Secondly, you need to consider the likelihood of being able to recover the debt from the foreign national. If you do obtain judgment against them and they refuse to comply with it, you can take enforcement action through the courts"
So, good luck and keep us updated! As far as the police thing is concerned, they will simply not do anything at all because there is no "public interest". (If it is true or not does not matter, but they are only interested in million dollar frauds or murder stuff). When you start to explain that someone lost bitcoins, they will tell you to go for a private court case, where you will run into the problems mentioned above.
"Before taking legal action against a foreign national, you should consider whether or not it is likely to be worthwhile.
First of all, it may cost a lot in legal fees as it is questionable whether the defendant will either readily agree to repayment of a debt, or have sufficient money to repay debts. Therefore, you need to ensure that you have sufficient funds to commence proceedings.
Secondly, you need to consider the likelihood of being able to recover the debt from the foreign national. If you do obtain judgment against them and they refuse to comply with it, you can take enforcement action through the courts"
So, good luck and keep us updated! As far as the police thing is concerned, they will simply not do anything at all because there is no "public interest". (If it is true or not does not matter, but they are only interested in million dollar frauds or murder stuff). When you start to explain that someone lost bitcoins, they will tell you to go for a private court case, where you will run into the problems mentioned above.
Filing a criminal fraud complaint with the police won't cost you anything, and at least there will be a paper trail of complaints against M4v3R. The more complaints received, the sooner the authorities will have to act. M4v3R is quite possible a serial conman, and if we do nothing he will just be able to walk away and defraud someone else. For all we know this whole deal with the restructuring of Bitmarket is an elaborate scheme to stall the victims from taking legal action, until all traces of the crime can be hidden. Now that Bitcoin is down - permanently, for what is seems - what proof does any of us victims have of any legal claim against M4v3R? I believe the "second hack" served two purposes; the theft of even more coins, and a valid-looking reason to shut down the site indefinitely.
I happen to know an excellent Polish transplant surgeon. If you, M4v3R, are healthy, you could get by just fine with only one kidney or half a liver. Maybe something could be arranged.
Hi there everybody,
I lost around 50 btc in the second theft/"hack" at bitmarket.eu. The questionaire ended before this incident. I already wrote an email to the administrator of bitmarket.eu, that i do neither intent to donate these coins nor am I interested in cooperating with any kind of solution that will be brought up by any person affiliated with bitmarket.eu or the group of new investors.
I will insist on the payout of my stolen bitcoins and I am considering legal action, if I do not get my bitcoins back until the end of march.
As far as I am concerned, I do not believe in the "official information".
To me the second incident smells like screwing the users all over again - steeling their bitcoins and gamble with them.
M4v3r said, there is the chance, that the latest 620 bitcoins could be paid back very soon. He considers himself a security guy and despite this he had his server and the wallet open to the world. No no no, there is something wrong in the state of denmark and I am not gonna take it.
If I have to go the judicial path, so be it. What I will get then I do not know, but at least I tried.
So if anybody here feels and thinks the way I do, maybe we could join forces.
I lost around 50 btc in the second theft/"hack" at bitmarket.eu. The questionaire ended before this incident. I already wrote an email to the administrator of bitmarket.eu, that i do neither intent to donate these coins nor am I interested in cooperating with any kind of solution that will be brought up by any person affiliated with bitmarket.eu or the group of new investors.
I will insist on the payout of my stolen bitcoins and I am considering legal action, if I do not get my bitcoins back until the end of march.
As far as I am concerned, I do not believe in the "official information".
To me the second incident smells like screwing the users all over again - steeling their bitcoins and gamble with them.
M4v3r said, there is the chance, that the latest 620 bitcoins could be paid back very soon. He considers himself a security guy and despite this he had his server and the wallet open to the world. No no no, there is something wrong in the state of denmark and I am not gonna take it.
If I have to go the judicial path, so be it. What I will get then I do not know, but at least I tried.
So if anybody here feels and thinks the way I do, maybe we could join forces.
I might be interested. I am leaning towards cooperation for the time being, but am not in any way waiving my right to take legal action, even if I decide to cooperate.
I totally agree with you...unfortunately everyone of us can only decide between crappy solutions. You have full opportunity to invest (whatever amount of) new money and get your part of shares for that.
When you chose the 30% payout it would also be 30% fiat payout based on the price on december when the coins got frozen. Or you can chose to not-cooperate and see how much money you can actually "sue" from the old owner...maybe few % or so at its best. You have to decide between crappiest solutions, but like in my case, i also have limited resources to invest into this project and also other investors (new) capital is limited, as i now tried to look for investors many weeks now and it is not easy to pull "new" money into this bankruptcy project at all. This is now the compromise we negotiated in long "night" discussions.
When old coins would give 3 times more shares than no one is investing and thats it. This is definetly NOT a good investment for new investors, it is necessary to make compromises.
Since you want to be "passive" investor, it might be better to chose the "cooperate", there you would get your "equal" share of the 50% profits from the new site
When you chose the 30% payout it would also be 30% fiat payout based on the price on december when the coins got frozen. Or you can chose to not-cooperate and see how much money you can actually "sue" from the old owner...maybe few % or so at its best. You have to decide between crappiest solutions, but like in my case, i also have limited resources to invest into this project and also other investors (new) capital is limited, as i now tried to look for investors many weeks now and it is not easy to pull "new" money into this bankruptcy project at all. This is now the compromise we negotiated in long "night" discussions.
When old coins would give 3 times more shares than no one is investing and thats it. This is definetly NOT a good investment for new investors, it is necessary to make compromises.
Since you want to be "passive" investor, it might be better to chose the "cooperate", there you would get your "equal" share of the 50% profits from the new site
I tend to forget that we are in this pickle together, and that you have lost much more money than I. I realize you are working very hard to make the best of a really crappy situation, and that you probably would rather be working on something else than perhaps recovering some of your losses. My thought was that me investing my coins would alleviate the pressure to reimburse the non-investors, but I will take your suggestion and choose cooperation with the initial plan.
but since the frozen coin is lost anyway it is "easier" to invest than really taking NEW coins into this kamikaze project that might never be able to earn back all the debts that were accumulated by the old admin.
But if you have different proposal you can contact the admin@bitmarket.eu
I think in his mail there were some alternatives presented when i am correct
But if you have different proposal you can contact the admin@bitmarket.eu
I think in his mail there were some alternatives presented when i am correct
I don't agree and I think your view is the complete opposite of mine. Nothing is "easier" with our situation. We don't have the luxury to just forget about it and spend our coins elsewhere. Our coins are trapped between a rock and a hard place, and we have a few poor options to choose between, one of which is to form a partnership with the man who embezzled our money in the first place. I thought the point of this whole operation was to make amends and pay back what is owed. Not to offer the crappiest deal any of the victims would still be willing to accept, while avoiding going to prison. I could be offered pennies to a dollar, and technically that would still be more than nothing at all, but at that point I wouldn't be willing to cooperate any more.
If the decision stands that new coins will have more than twice the buying power of frozen coins, then I will be choosing to collect 30% of my coins and leave this whole mess behind me, (provided the offer still stands.) Then, at least I can choose whether I want to spend my coins on an investment in this company or black tar heroin.
Well, 1 frozen coin is 1 share in case you decide to invest. The question is only how NEWLY invested money is valued in terms of shares. The current proposal is a fairer solution for people that invest NEW money in order to pay back frozen coins...
It is always possible to change back to "non-cooperation" and formally send a claim against bitmarket.eu, but your help to solve the situation in a best possible way would be highly appreciated
It is always possible to change back to "non-cooperation" and formally send a claim against bitmarket.eu, but your help to solve the situation in a best possible way would be highly appreciated
That is still a problem if a new coin buys a bigger share than a frozen coin. I think in terms of fairness it is fair enough that potential new investors have a reasonable choice of opting out. We who have frozen coins are pretty much forced to cooperate or face losing all of our money.
I propose a division of shares into A and B classes, where A shares have voting power and B shares have not. Otherwise I prefer the option to receive a one-time payout of 30% of the coins owed.
I am quite unhappy with the latest development. I am basically being forced into cooperation. I don't want to get short-changed in the process. If the value of coins invested is being fixed to the exchange rate from December 2012, then I'm not investing.
This is really unbelievable! Instead of repaying his debt, M4v3R has somehow managed to lose 600 more BTC! There is no way I'm going to invest in this fishy business now. M4v3R should really take out a loan (from a bank, family or friends) to repay the users for their losses, and then look for another occupation. The only other option is that nobody gets paid and M4v3R does some prison time for fraud.
Edit: I was mad as hell yesterday, and I'm still mad. However, I do NOT wish for M4v3R to go to prison. Nor do I want anything else bad to happen to him. I was just venting.
Edit: I was mad as hell yesterday, and I'm still mad. However, I do NOT wish for M4v3R to go to prison. Nor do I want anything else bad to happen to him. I was just venting.
It's time to start making repayments in installments, so that we all can see at what rate the money is being repaid. Also I would like to be able to sell my bitcoins on hold to another user. It would be nice if you could setup a separate market for the bitcoins on hold.
My bitcoins are "on hold" now, anyone has an idea what that means?
Short story, the site owner used our money to speculate, and lost. Now he owes over a third of a million dollars, and the debt is growing much faster than he can ever pay. The money is simply gone. Deal with it or live with it.