verified with Bitcoin core

i sent overall $1,500 to BT since feb 8th. I have made about $2,600 of cash-outs (principal + interests) and i have also got about $700 left so overall i am about 120% in profit assuming i can withdraw those remaining $700

like someone else said, this is NOT an evidence that BT is NOT a ponzi just giving a data point for those interested!

could you please elaborate and clarify what you mean here ? thx!


same question here could you please clarify ? what is your metric to say that something out(under) performs ?


the mispricing here is clear because you can replicate the exact same risk profile for cheaper using the decorated put. If you could borrow BTC to build a position you could even reproduce the outright call to achieve the exact same leverage.


same question as before, what is your criteria to say something is higher/lower, just leverage ?

for leverage metric yes, but again if you could borrow BTC the same leverage could be achieved.

not sure i understand this last statement, could you please elaborate a bit ? thx!

XMR + Put is equivalent payoff to Call + BTC as i have argued. Naked XMR is neither better nor worse from profitability perspective, it's just a different risk profile. XMR has downside risk that the Call payoff does not have.

My point was just to say that the *optionality* of the call option is much cheaper if you buy it through Put + XMR instead of buying the outright calls.

With regard to leverage it is true that a *naked Call* is higher leverage than *XMR + Put* however the premium you pay on the optionality does not justify it in my eyes. For the same reason, the break-even level for XMR + Put is lower than the naked Call. Therefore, if someone is a bit short on capital AND really want to play options AND wants to target maximum leverage they should probably buy a combination of Call, Put and XMR to optimize their break-even/leverage metrics.
 

dear all,

for those considering buying call options be aware of the following fact from options.

in the case of european options (which are options that can only be exercised AT maturity and not before) there is something called the "put/call parity" which states that for a call Ce and put Pe striking at K and if the forward is called F (with the same maturity as the one of options) one has (in absence of discounting which is ok assumption given that we are talking about 1 month options and interest rates are so low)

Ce - Pe = F - K

now since we are talking about american options it's true that the previous relation does not hold however the following can be said. As mentioned above the early exercise opportunity for the american call is worthless in the absence of dividend yield, so the calls ARE european options. For the puts, given that interest rate are so low there's hardly any chance to be willing to early exercise, but let's not even say that and assume that the american put Pa has a higher value than the european put. So Pa > Pe then one has

Pa > Ce - F + K

which is equivalent to saying that

Pa + F > Ce + K

in the absence of dividend yield or interest rate the forward value XMR/BTC should not be different than spot which is about 0.0043 when i am writing this (for those unaware, the forward value of XMR/BTC has nothing to do with the "most likely value" of XMR/BTC in one month time! so it makes perfect sense that the fair forward rate XMR/BTC in 1 month is the spot value today even if your are super bullish on XMR ).

why did i say all of this ? just to make you aware that if you buy a Put and buy XMR/BTC spot you will effectively construct for yourself a position that is even more valuable than a synthetic position K + Call.

why is it interesting ? because if you look at the current market prices displayed you will see that for the Sept maturity call with strike K=0.004 you can easily see that you could save close to 0.001 compared to buying the outright call that is sold for 0.00210

It is not possible to arbitrage rpietila because he is not providing a 2 way market however you see that you can still easily save you substantial money by buying puts + spot instead of calls

sorry for the long post, happy to elaborate if you have more questions about options!!

DISCLAIMER: i have no xmr holding and do not intend to build one in the next 72hours i am just interested in seeing how this experimental option market will turn out!

bug is confirmed by btcdrak, he's aware of it so i suppose we should expect a solution soon. In the meantime i bought in through the paper wallet solution

well i think the following statements are not equivalent

1) they do not want to produce documents
2) they have not produced documents
3) they have not produced documents but claim they are willing to do it at some point
4) they have not produced documents, claim they are willing to produce them at some point but eventually changed their mind about it.

so each one can cause various degrees of (un)certainty regarding the trust they should receive. I thought they were in category 3 but seem to have switched to 4, correct ? Even 1 i think is better than 4

thanks guys, i've edited my message. I had not realized that this was available, apologies for being a bit too "vocal"!

ok so today i made an attempt at funding my btc-trader e-wallet using ripple. I had $19 worth of btc there and wanted to use XRP to complete to $20 in order to purchase a new trading share

pro: transfer is immediate. After a few seconds the xrp transfer was confirmed in my ripple wallet. And it was instantaneously credited to my btc-trader e-wallet. That's pretty cool compared to the time it takes on the btc network

con: unfortunately i discovered that you cannot combine $19 of btc and $2 of xrp to buy a single trading share. It looks like each currency is segregated and you can purchase trading shares only from 1 sub-e-wallet at a time. That SUCKS!

I wrote to their support line to get clarification on this as it does not really make sense to me given that at the end of the day they convert everything back in USD for the purpose of doing your account accounting.

On top of it the ripple protocol allows in principle to send to them not only XRP but also BTC, USD etc... so if really they want to segregate currencies they should at least let a ripple user decide which currency to send them and credit it to the appropriate wallet! I could perfectly have sent them $2 worth of BTC or even just USD directly from my ripple wallet had they given me the opportunity to do so!

anyways, that's just to give a heads up to anyone who might be interested in using those new funding solution for btc-trader

[EDIT] sounds like i was a bit sleepy yesterday. Several people indicated to me that there's a free built-in currency converter to transfer funds from one part of the wallet to another. So contrary to my stupid comment it does not suck at all thanks folks!

Hi iFlash,

what do you mean exactly by "maxing-out" ? do you mean the $50k cap to the number of shares that can be own by a single account ?

it has been explained several times before in this thread

even though you can do deposits and withdrawals in BTC currency, at the end of the day (hyip or not) bitcoin-trader.biz is a site for USD based investments, which means your profitability/pnl/however you want to call it, has to be measured in USD.

Personally I did not sell any btc to put there. Rather, i used USD from my bank account and only used BTC as a bridge currency to perform my deposit there. I incurred the 1% fee from coinbase but that was safer than trusting some USD based third parties which i don't trust a priori.

At any rate, you can put your deposit in btc and withdraw in btc, true. But in order to see wether if your investment is profitable or not you need convert everything back into USD. If this does not suit your profile (eg you investment currency is BTC and not USD and you don't want to have a BTC/USD conversion risk) then you should look for something else (assuming of course one more time that this is not just another ponzi )

Hi Grinder,

sorry but you did not understand. As of today i did not lose any capital. If you follow my previous post, i took 1.5k from my bank account and put them on bitcoin-trader. As of today I have received back 1.5k. So it does not matter what i did meanwhile. 1.5k in = 1.5k out therefore i am breakeven

hope this is clear enough!

hi nrd525,

that's not how you compute breakeven. I have put 1.5k of "initial capital" in a black box and extracted out 1.3k out. So I recovered 87% of my initial capital no matter what happens. If other words if they bankrupt tomorrow then i will have recovered 87cts on the dollar. That's what i call being close to breakeven (neither profit nor loss).

The 500 i reinvested may be lost however those are "reinvested earnings" so if i lose them that's in the category "lost opportunity", not "lost capital". You may disagree on the last point however it does not change anything on the amount of "hard cash" which i extracted. I agree that if i had not reinvested them i could be at a 20% profit now instead of 13% loss.

And of course this is all in the worst case scenario. If i get it all back (my shares expire in july) and i no longer reinvest anything then overall i could be up to 100% overall.

hope this helps. Again i am not advertising for them, just giving the example of my own experience.

PS: actually some shares just expired today and i redeemed an extra 200, so over all i am completely flat (1.5 in and 1.5 out) therefore any amount left in bitcoin-trader is a pure "option".

haha thanks for your advice! well i may well be stupid and this may well be a scam, I am not arguing the opposite but just pointing out the fact that i've been able to withdraw without pb so far (that was just in response to the poster who announced issues in btc withdrawals)

I made a withdrawal request on saturday and got it processed on monday in due time (within 1 business day). So far nothing to complain about. I have put 1.5k with them a couple of months ago and so far got 1.3k out and 500 "reinvested" so pretty close to breakeven.

fyi please see the important update following hard fork

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddCoin/comments/25956g/wallet_v120/

I cannot connect securely to bitcoin-trader.biz right now. Receiving an ssl certificate error which tells me i am connecting to ssl2000.cloudfare.com instead of bitcoin-trader.biz. I have attempted from multipler browsers (safari, chrome) and multipler computers (both mac os x 10.9).

some people on twitter seem to be reporting similar problems for coinex and mintpal...so was wondering what's going on!

thx

better check the reddcoin reddit for up to date infos, devs are more active there

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddCoin/

Converting to alt is the safest way to circumvent exchanges blocking BTC withdrawals for any reason.

Personally i used reddcoin and it worked perfect, on top of it they are still quite cheap so it could be an event better decision going forward

your profit are in USD though therefore even though you can deposit and withdraw in BTC you can get less BTC than you put in if the BTC/USD rate has gone down in the meantime.

Think of bitcoin-trader.biz as a USD based fund, not a BTC one