It has been interesting and amusing reading of late with all the allegations and ddos attacks occurring at present in relation to bitcoin casinos.

People has been complaining and making allegations against bitcoin casinos for scamming and cheating and being unfair for ages and always get shot down with ‘where’s your proof’, ‘you’re just a sore loser’, ‘it’s gambling, of course you will lose’ etc etc.

Now these same casinos are the ones making allegations of unfair and unethical behavior of others. Just because something can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done. Just because a man can rape a woman, doesn’t mean he should. Just because an adult can abuse a child, doesn’t mean they should. Just because you can set up a bitcoin casino, doesn’t mean you should.

WHAT THE FCUK guys?? Do you really think you are an ethical, fair, and esteemed person or member of the bitcoin community?

Get your head out of the clouds you greedy and evil people.

Ask yourself these questions:
1.   Is there any mention anywhere on your sites about responsible gambling;
2.   Do you plan on paying taxes on your business profits;
3.   Have you (or do you plan to) donate any of your business profits to gambling related charities;
4.   Do you state anywhere that you do not accept betting from underage players; and
5.   If Satoshi were to comment on your business, would it be negative or positive?

Has any of the above even ever entered your small brains? Gambling in society is strictly and heavily regulated. It is as such for very specific reasons. If you want to operate in an unregulated environment, accept that you will be shot down at any opportunity that others get. Stop all your whining and crying about it you pathetic scum.

All you see is dollar signs. You don’t care one bit about the damage gambling does to people, their families, and society at large. Is making an easy profit the only part you care to take in all of this.

You guys are the new wild wild west, dog eat dog. So what the fcuk are you all complaining about? You are running illegal businesses. You are taking advantage of people. You are allowing people to use your service when they shouldn’t.

You are just gang leaders, and your ‘investors’ the gang members. You are all too blinded by the perceived easy profit to see the damage you are doing. Too busy running your drugs and protecting your territory to realize that drug running is illegal as well as a target for other drug pushers.

And guess what - surprise surprise, when one gang sees easy money being made by another gang, what do you think will happen? How long did you think the ‘party’ would last?

You all have targets on your heads. Don’t be so blinded that you can’t see that fact. You think you are anonymous. Well there are other Anonymous people out there that will take you down. In whatever form that will eventually take. Best to take your stolen money and run now.

GOOD v evil. YOU evil scum will LOSE.

Just my humble thoughts 

I agree fully, but if it was me, i would be upset that someone was selling out on the project, even if it was a portion of their holdings of the project.

I mean, why sell at all? Surely no-one invested their entire personal wealth from the get go in it. That being the likely case, why sell any portion of your project holdings so quickly?

HAHAHA what a JOKE.

If that were to come from PrimeDice, it would be equivalent of someone that has a swimming pool filled with piranhas that they haven't fed for a while saying "Hey everybody, come for a swim in my pool, the person who dives the deepest gets a holiday to Hawaii". Then 'mysteriously' people go diving but don't re-surface. Hmmmm, i'm stunned why that is. lol

Does anyone out there have the design skills to do up one of those 'You're doing it right / You're doing it wrong' photos?

If so, can you post one up here that says "Scamming, you're doing it right".

Heart's in the right place definitely, but applauding investors for already selling and doubling their money...strange??
Is Bitcoin and Mastercoin about the idea, and what they represent, or about money and wealth and how quickly it can be made from it?

I will refer to the excellent article written by TrevorXavier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

And provide a quote from it I also believe to be true.

Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit. A house can also analyze betting patterns (progressives) for ways to minimize its short term risk of ruin.”

PrimeDice i believe is fair for micro bets.

PrimeDice i believe is unfair and cheating on bets 0.5 btc and above.

All should read the post linked. It simply is a must for anyone involved in btc gambling.

Yes, most important.
I truly believe the post from TrevorXavier should be pinned to the gambling forum.

How is it that someone can take a liking to someone they have never met and only after a few brief exchanges. Dabs you are a good guy. You seem to be coming from an academic/statistical perspective, and there is no fault with anything you have said based on that perspective.

You are not focusing on the correct particulars however. Take your 10 million bets from PD, JD and co and remove 99.5% of the bets. Remove all the micro bets and lets talk about bets only at 0.5 btc and above.

My point of contention is - quote "Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit."

If you are able to do so, please run your analysis on the data of PRIMEDICE for bets 0.5 btc and above and report what the house edge is currently for those, and only those, bets. (For the record, i believe Just-Dice to be far superior and fair from my experience.)

Quote from TrevorXavier post : "If a house cheated, they would eventually get caught. Not necessarily. The house only needs to bring their theoretical house edge to 1-2% to see significant gains. Additionally, if the house concentrates its cheating on a minority of players that it can safely assume is not investigating exploits, the cheating can continue without detection."

Dabs, if you do manage to calculate the house edge % for PD for >0.5btc bets, I'd be most interested in your explaining same should that % come back at 2% or better.




 

Dabs, thank you firstly for contributing to this discussion in a professional manner, and providing constructive and meaningful input. I can respect a person when they present in such a manner. Given the topic, it's all too easy to bring these discussions down to toilet level, with name calling, throwing terms like 'sour grapes', 'sore loser' etc etc around. So i respect what you say.

I have over 2 decades of gambling experience, and i have studied quantitative analysis at college. Further, placing a $1,000 bet these days unfortunately does not mean the same to me as it once did. But whatever, you lose some, you win some. Know what you are getting involved in, and take the outcomes like a man.

BUT, if you have vast experience in anything, you know when something is not right. This is what i am saying, from my personal experience, past and present, i believe a particular site is not 'right'.

I agree with what you said above. But also remember that coin has too sides. All of those loses you mention are statistically possible, but the same goes for such a run on wins. It is possible to win 6 times in a row on 12%. But on all these threads, all the bitcoin sites etc, and with all the chat and people watching the play going on, i personally haven't yet heard of any stories of such 'magic' run of wins.

Why are so many people coming out saying 'man, a lot of bad streaks on such a such site', or 'i know it is possible to go on a bad run, but 10 loses in a row, 3 times, this quickly, wtf' etc etc.

Some sites have only been running a 'minute' statistically speaking. And already have claimed victim after victim with 'statistically acceptable variance' blah blah blah. Such runs (good or bad) are possible, but very RARE, like 1 time per 100,000+. For such runs, and coincidentally all to be bad runs for the players, to happen within the first 'minute', well come on, are those site owners REALLY THAT LUCKY? and us players that unlucky?

I'm a realist, and I personally believe something is not right with some sites.
 

Firstly and MOST IMPORTANTLY - I have no affiliation with KingOfSports (KOS) whatsoever.

So KOS if this comes back on you in anyway, I sincerely apologize.

But I agree and share some of the same BELIEFS as you do. But what I BELIEVE is what I believe. Just because a belief or two are shared does not mean ALL beliefs are shared.

My personal BELIEF is that there are sites claiming to be provably fair, however are NOT FAIR at all. My current site of ‘dishonor’ I will not name specifically, but I will say it starts with ‘PRIME’ and ends in ‘DICE’.

I will again refer to the excellent article written by TrevorXavier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

And provide a couple of quotes from it I also believe to be true.

Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit. A house can also analyze betting patterns (progressives) for ways to minimize its short term risk of ruin.”

Yes, a lot of players (myself included) on some sites have many hands/spins/rolls of wins, thousands of wins. So many wins (correct statistically and all or even above odds to player even), however at such micro bets. BUT, I am sure some of you (myself included) bet a reasonable amount each go at times as well, say 0.1 low end, 1.0+ btc per go.

What have you / I personally seen at 1.0 btc per bet. WOW, instant such a bad run, just an unlucky day, its gambling, you will always lose, don’t gamble. 9 and 10 losing streaks in a row at 50%, several times over, and within 200 bets. 7-8/10 loses at 70% time after time. Wow, kind of thought at 70%, I should have been winning 7/10, statistically I mean. But yeah, loses like this can happen.

Go back to micro, and it’s within statistical limits again, even win, win, win, win, Yay I just won 0.000055 btc.

Quote 2 “Third, it can employ these cheats to minimize risk during progressive betting. Any player using Martingale or other betting system will always lose in the long-run, but short-run gains can occur. As such, producing guaranteed losses for the player over big bets will factor into the house's profit-maximizing strategy.

Fourth, a house can offer more smaller wins to players by cheating large bets, increasing word-of-mouth advertising. For example, suppose a draw poker game accepts bets from a micro-bitcoin to 50 BTC. If the house forces a player loss at 40 BTC…”

Quote 3. From the discussion in that article “A main point of the article suggests that a house could effectively cheat a portion of its players by segregating them through bet or browser discrimination. By implication this means a majority of the cheats are performed on a minority of players.”

So the people you see complaining about sites cheating are these ‘minority’. And the people you see defending, are those ‘majority’.

If you are in the ‘majority’, sorry you don’t have enough cash to bet more than a dime a go.

If you are in the ‘minority’, then chances are some sites are cheating you.

Got to love when sites are smart enough to give countless free micro coins out and then let players play fairly with them. ONLY TO CHEAT PLAYERS WHEN THEY DEPOSIT OWN FUNDS AND BET LARGER.

Yes, any outcome is statistically possible. No one is forcing anyone to bet. But claiming to be a fair site, when you are not, just because there is no regulation, is straight up scamming.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, time and time again, based on observations by independent person after independent person, well….

Well, just read the linked article folks. Then re-read it. And to anyone who comes out defending certain sites, stop being ass-kissers please, man up and place several dozen above 1.0 btc per go bets, and THEN see how fair it is, statistically or otherwise.

Thanks b!z.
But nothing that already hasn't been said before by various other people.
I just think we need to keep the information at the forefront, to be community regulation, in the absence of formal regulations. If what some sites do with their online bitcoin 'casinos', they did in Vegas, the owners of those sites would be in prison very quickly.

There are enough techie and savvy individuals around that can see whats going on, just wanting to let others know so they can truly make an informed choice about how/where they bet their btc.

The part about these sites committing the cheating on a segregated/minority of players is the WORST thing.
When the accusers come out, so many players jump up and passionately defend the cheating site. And they do so with the hand on their heart truly believing same to be a fact. However those defending will never fall victim to these sites - their bet amounts are just too low.

And since the vast majority are defending, the issue slowly dies. GREAT FOR THE CHEATING SITE. But VERY BAD for the bitcoin betting community.

Yes, they are pointless.
Yes you can travel across the country with horse and buggy, but when was the last time anyone actually did that??

Because he is one of the few on this forum that speaks out about his BELIEFS. He has never accused any specific site of cheating, but he has sated his beliefs about certain things he has noticed.

So i respect him for speaking out when everybody else take their micro coin then take it up the...

That and i couldn't be arsed being creative.

As newbie, i cannot post in KingOfSports thread in the gambling section of this forum.

Moderators please feel free to move this to that thread, as that is where i would have liked to post.

*****************************
From KingOfSports thread:
"Someone posted this article in one of the threads here. Had to highlight it as many sites are being questioned regarding this.

MUST READ ARTICLE:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/
"

Firstly and MOST IMPORTANTLY - I have no affiliation with KingOfSports (KOS) whatsoever.

So KOS if this comes back on you in anyway, I sincerely apologize.

But I agree and share some of the same BELIEFS as you do. But what I BELIEVE is what I believe. Just because a belief or two are shared does not mean ALL beliefs are shared.

My personal BELIEF is that there are sites claiming to be provably fair, however are NOT FAIR at all. My current site of ‘dishonor’ I will not name specifically, but I will say it starts with ‘PRIME’ and ends in ‘DICE’.

I will again refer to the excellent article written by TrevorXavier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

And provide a couple of quotes from it I also believe to be true.

Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit. A house can also analyze betting patterns (progressives) for ways to minimize its short term risk of ruin.”

Yes, a lot of players (myself included) on some sites have many hands/spins/rolls of wins, thousands of wins. So many wins (correct statistically and all or even above odds to player even), however at such micro bets. BUT, I am sure some of you (myself included) bet a reasonable amount each go at times as well, say 0.1 low end, 1.0+ btc per go.

What have you / I personally seen at 1.0 btc per bet. WOW, instant such a bad run, just an unlucky day, its gambling, you will always lose, don’t gamble. 9 and 10 losing streaks in a row at 50%, several times over, and within 200 bets. 7-8/10 loses at 70% time after time. Wow, kind of thought at 70%, I should have been winning 7/10, statistically I mean. But yeah, loses like this can happen.

Go back to micro, and it’s within statistical limits again, even win, win, win, win, Yay I just won 0.000055 btc.

Quote 2 “Third, it can employ these cheats to minimize risk during progressive betting. Any player using Martingale or other betting system will always lose in the long-run, but short-run gains can occur. As such, producing guaranteed losses for the player over big bets will factor into the house's profit-maximizing strategy.

Fourth, a house can offer more smaller wins to players by cheating large bets, increasing word-of-mouth advertising. For example, suppose a draw poker game accepts bets from a micro-bitcoin to 50 BTC. If the house forces a player loss at 40 BTC…”

Quote 3. From the discussion in that article “A main point of the article suggests that a house could effectively cheat a portion of its players by segregating them through bet or browser discrimination. By implication this means a majority of the cheats are performed on a minority of players.”

So the people you see complaining about sites cheating are these ‘minority’. And the people you see defending, are those ‘majority’.

If you are in the ‘majority’, sorry you don’t have enough cash to bet more than a dime a go.

If you are in the ‘minority’, then chances are some sites are cheating you.

Got to love when sites are smart enough to give countless free micro coins out and then let players play fairly with them. ONLY TO CHEAT PLAYERS WHEN THEY DEPOSIT OWN FUNDS AND BET LARGER.

Yes, any outcome is statistically possible. No one is forcing anyone to bet. But claiming to be a fair site, when you are not, just because there is no regulation, is straight up scamming.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, time and time again, based on observations by independent person after independent person, well….

Well, just read the linked article folks. Then re-read it. And to anyone who comes out defending certain sites, stop being ass-kissers please, man up and place several dozen above 1.0 btc per go bets, and THEN see how fair it is, statistically or otherwise.

Let the drama begin……….

Will do, thanks for the heads up.
Much appreciated.

ahh my favorite, from the Simpsons: "Maggie, can you say dodecahedron" hahaha.

step 1. Door knock around your neighborhood.
step 2. Ask if anyone wants a 'hole' dug.
step 3. Charge enough fiat to dig it to those that want it.
step 4. Convert your fiat into a 'whole' 1 btc.
 
good luck

Good luck. i hope you succeed.
But its not so easy getting funds in/out of exchanges (to varying degrees).